Dunga

FIFA.com: You played in three FIFA World Cups. What was the importance of each of them to you personally and professionally?
Dunga: From a personal viewpoint, I was like every Brazilian, in that I dreamed of playing at a World Cup from an early age. When I saw Pele, Rivelino and all those great players, I dreamed of one day playing at a World Cup. To be able to play in three was a great learning experience for me, as we had a very good team in 1990 but were still unable to win.
In 1994, we won but it was that World Cup that really brought it home to me and the Brazilian people that talent alone is not enough to win a World Cup. There must also be unity of purpose, organisation, planning, discipline and determination. In fact, there are many ingredients needed to make a winning team. The 1994 World Cup was very important for the country, because it encouraged companies to adopt a more planned and organised approach to business instead of the traditional off-the-cuff Brazilian style. So, that helped the country a good deal.
The 1998 World Cup provided us with another lesson. In life, as in football, there is no guaranteed winning formula. We thought we'd found that formula, and we wanted to repeat what we'd done in 1994. However, it wasn't enough. We should have honed our technique, our tactics and everything else football-related too. It's like when an athlete wins an Olympic medal one year and fails to qualify for the next Olympics. Football can be like that too.

What is your earliest childhood memory of the FIFA World Cup?
What I remember most was the moment when the players went up the steps to receive their medals and the World Cup Trophy. That made a big impression on me when I was a kid. During each World Cup I closed my eyes and imagined our team stepping up there at that moment. That gave me great strength.

You spoke about the 1998 FIFA World Cup. What do you remember about the Final against France?
I think that what happened to Ronaldo was very emotionally upsetting for Brazil. And although I don't think it was what decided the destination of the Cup, it did affect us because we are very emotional people. Being very close to Ronaldo, what happened really ruffled us and we were unable to concentrate on the game. We kept thinking about what was going on and felt very unsettled. However, that wasn't what caused Brazil to lose the World Cup. What happened was that we thought we'd found a winning formula, and so we forgot everything else that had to be done.

Some people say that game was a duel between the contrasting styles of you and Didier Deschamps. Would you go along with that?
He's a strong player, with good technique. But France's World Cup team was extremely strong in defence and midfield. They were well organised and well positioned. That said, what struck me most about that World Cup was the fact that Zidane had never gone into the area for a header up until that point. So, when a team are well organised and do their job well, everything goes in their favour. Good or bad luck doesn't exist in football, all that matters is doing things properly and that's what they did.

How important were you to the team during your time as captain?
I was only as important as all the other players. Everyone had a job to do on the team. I think the most important thing was our conviction. We'd played a game in Paris the year before and after that we sat down and discussed what our objective would be. We wanted to be world champions, so we had to overcome all the obstacles in our way and make the necessary sacrifices. We concluded that the group as a whole was more important than any individual, and that we wouldn't repeat the mistakes of 1990. We asked ourselves what our expectations were, and our response was to become world champions. To achieve that, we'd have to work hard, organise ourselves and be really determined. There would be no room for self-importance; our main objective had to be winning the World Cup. To achieve this we'd have to focus all our efforts towards this goal and resolve any problems we had.

How did you become team captain? Was it Parreira's decision or that of the players?
It was coach Parreira's decision. When you're captain, the armband you wear is not that important. What really matters is your sense of purpose. I carried out a captain's duties even before I wore the armband, just as other players did when I was made captain. That's because you need more than one person to lead a team. In my understanding, a leader is not someone who imposes their opinions, but someone who is guided by the group. I only carried out the orders, and the objectives that had already been decided upon. When we made collective decisions, it made it so much easier out on the pitch to get someone's attention, to remind people what we'd agreed on beforehand, and what each person's responsibilities and role were. However, that was not my domain, the squad made those decisions beforehand.

Did the frustration of 1990 help the team succeed in 1994?
Yes, it helped a lot, because all of us wanted to be go down in history as winners. At that get-together in France, we concluded that we wanted to be world champions and to do so we couldn't commit the same mistakes as in 1990. We already had a good idea of what a World Cup meant, and for some players it would be their last chance to be champions. We wanted to go down in history and for Brazil to re-establish its hegemony. After that things took their course naturally.

At the time, did you feel the burden that came with Brazil's 24-year world title drought?
Of course. People don't understand what it means for Brazil to go 24 years without winning a title. Our team may not have been the most technically brilliant Seleção, but we had the most personality and strength of character. In Brazil, very few players are able to perform under that kind of pressure, because it's not just the pressure of one state, you're under pressure from the whole of Brazil. Our own fans put a lot of pressure on us, with the news that appeared in the papers and on TV. So the squad became very withdrawn and we didn't allow ourselves to get involved with the news of what was happening back in Brazil, so that it couldn't affect us. We did a psychological study and we concluded that if we carried on receiving news from Brazil, we wouldn't be able to go out on the pitch and train with our typical Brazilian exuberance. We weren't going to be bothered about training properly as we'd be too concerned about the bad news. That's why we shut ourselves off from the world and focused solely on the World Cup.
Take, for example, a country like Cameroon. With all due respect to them, they have never won anything, and yet you saw what happened when their player missed a penalty that would have qualified them for Germany 2006. If that happened in Cameroon, can you imagine what would have happened if Brazil had reached a final and missed a penalty? We were aware of all of that pressure, but we didn't get hung up on it. Our only concern was to fulfil our objective.

What can you tell us about Carlos Parreira as a coach?
Parreira is a different kind of coach to the ones that the Brazilian press and fans are used to. We're used to coaches that talk a lot, who shout a lot from pitch side. Coach Parreira is a calmer individual, who's very intelligent and very well prepared, just like coach Zagallo. They took all the decisions; they managed the squad well because everybody knew what was expected of each one of us. He knew how to get the message through to each player about what their role was and, at the same time, he gave us licence to talk about things between ourselves. He used to ask us about how the European teams played, about the characteristics of each player, the way each team trained. Because of all of this, he was very prepared and when we took to the field we already knew what we had to do.

Can we talk a bit about tactics? Taffarel said that he didn't have much to do in 1994 because Brazil defended so well. Was that the principal strength of that team?
Coach Parreira always said: "Brazilian players know how to play when they have the ball." Our only problem was how to organise ourselves defensively when we didn't have the ball. In order to make use of all the technical quality we had at our disposal, we needed to be able to win back possession as quickly as possible.
As regards tactics, everyone assumed that Brazil lining up with two ball-winning midfielders was a defensive ploy, but it was exactly the opposite. The idea was to play as far away from our goal as possible and win the ball as quickly as we could so that Bebeto, Romario and Zinho could get involved and Jorginho, Branco and Leonardo had time to get forward. Therefore, our job was to bring the team out as far forward as possible, as far away from our goal as we could. As a result, when our opponents played the ball out from defence, they would open themselves up and we'd be able to win the ball only 20 or 30 metres from their goal.

Which would you say was the most difficult game during that tournament? In my opinion, our most difficult game was against the United States because, quite apart from the technical side, there was such an atmosphere, and an entire stadium against us on what was America's Independence Day. All of that had a huge influence. From a psychological point of view the Holland game was also tough because, after leading 2-0, we allowed Holland to level things at 2-2. From then on the team's maturity shone through as we got ourselves back in front. That game meant a great deal to the squad, because Branco had only just come into the team and he was the one who turned the tide back in our favour. That strengthened the team's resolve.

When were you sure Brazil would win that world title?
Well, you're only ever certain when you've been crowned champions. However, we believed from early on that we'd get there, because we had a very clear objective, unlike 1990. There was a real conviction and focus about us. When we spoke to each other before the games or in training, you could see the resolve in players' eyes, as if they were already on the field, thinking about what they had to do.

How important were Bebeto and Romario to that team?
As important as Taffarel, Aldair and Dunga. Everyone had their role. Of course, we know that the players who get the goals are seen differently by the press and the fans. Take Aldair, for example. There you had almost the perfect player; he was technically gifted, strong, agile and very skilful. Then there was Branco, Jorginho... Each of them played a critical part in deciding the destination of that World Cup. And, of course, Taffarel himself, who always came up trumps when really needed. We can't say that one player wins you the World Cup. Yes, of course, you can have outstanding players, but without a united group, winning is a struggle.

What did you say to your team-mates before the Final?
I told them we were doing what we did best - playing football - so there was nothing to fear. I also said that if they had ever dreamt of playing in a World Cup Final, then now was the moment to fulfil those dreams and see our names go down in history. I told them we couldn't allow the pressure or stress to affect us and that everything was up to us.

Do you think that Final was a good game?
Yes, it was a very even game, as you'd expect for a World Cup match between Brazil and Italy. We had chances to score, as did Italy. For the first time ever, the World Cup was decided on penalties, and journalists had always claimed that Brazilian players weren't emotionally balanced enough to be able to take good penalties. That just gave us the opportunity to put paid to another myth. It had been 24 years since we'd won and that was a way of showing how well we'd prepared. That generation of players was able to show why they were there, at that moment in time.

Your task was to nullify the threat of Baggio. How did you prepare for this?
I was ready to play one second, 90 minutes or every game at that World Cup. That was the mentality of every member of the team. We can't say that it was just about Dunga or Taffarel, we were all prepared to start the game, to play one minute or the full 90, and to mark whoever we were told. As far as we were concerned, there's no doubt that Baggio was supremely talented but you have to remember that our training sessions were even more difficult than facing other sides. We had Ronaldo, Viola and Cafu, so you get an idea of the kind of quality we're talking about. We were effectively playing during training; such was the quality of the squad. We had players on the bench as good as or better than those we had to face. But going back to Baggio, without a doubt, if we gave him a second, half a yard or even ten centimetres, he could decide the game.

Was the Final the best game of the tournament in your opinion?
I don't think so. There were games where we played very well, such as against Cameroon. That said, a title-decider is always more memorable. Winning a World Cup is not solely a matter of technique. Perseverance and unity are also important. The key, however, was staying mentally composed. Without that we couldn't have shown our true talent. Therefore, a team that wins the World Cup does so because it is emotionally very stable.

During the Final, the Trophy was not very far from the pitch. Were you conscious of that on the day?
No, and, to tell you the truth, I didn't think about the Cup at all, just the thought of becoming world champion. Of course, finally lifting the Trophy is something wonderful, but I think much more about it now than I did then.
When I went to play in Japan, people said to me, "Only 17 people have ever captained a national team to a World Cup win, and you're one of them." That's when I began to realise the importance of what we'd achieved. However, during the World Cup, my only thoughts were on winning the game. As I said earlier, before the game we imagined ourselves on the victory podium, so I only thought about winning. In my imagination I saw all of our group standing there waiting to be crowned champions. Here was an entire generation of players that had won everything but had yet to be given the credit they were due back in Brazil. We knew that for this to happen, we'd have to win the World Cup. That was our only thought.

What was the feeling among the players when they realised the game was going into extra time?
The word "calm" is not the one I'd choose to describe the atmosphere in the camp. We were tense because of the situation, but we knew what we had to do and we believed in ourselves. So, "focused" is the right word to use. The squad was really focused, fully aware that we couldn't give them any space; that we couldn't make any mistakes, because if you make a mistake in the World Cup Final you don't have time to recover from that, especially against teams that are as well-drilled as Germany, Argentina, or on this occasion, Italy. So, we couldn't afford any mistakes and we'd have to wait for the right moment to kill the game off.

You took a penalty kick. How did that decision come about?
The decision was taken during our training sessions. We always said that talent had to be complimented by dedication and practice. When I said earlier we played by training and trained by playing, I meant just that. We practiced penalty kicks in training as if it were a game: all the time remaining focused, confident and imagining you were trying to score against the opposition keeper. We had in Zetti, Gilmar and Taffarel three keepers who specialised in saving penalties, so it was just as difficult as facing the opposition.
That's what I'd trained for. There's a moment in training when it feels like the real thing, but when it comes to the game itself it's different. Taking penalties in training is one thing, but when the time comes for you to take one, and there are no second chances, it's something else entirely. When coach Parreira started walking towards us and said my name, it was like plunging into freezing water. But at the same time as I felt that shock, I started to recall how I'd wanted to play for Brazil since I was a kid. After everything that happened to me in 1990, I was made the scapegoat and people spent four years criticising me. So, that was my big chance. Despite football being a team sport, that moment comes down to individual skill. I had to rise above those people who'd criticised me, and ensure I didn't disappoint my supporters. That was my big chance to do just that.

What went through your mind as you made the long walk from the centre-circle to the penalty spot?
Moments earlier, Taffarel had blocked Massaro's spot-kick, and it rebounded towards midfield where I caught it. At that moment I began to think about everything that had happened in my professional career, particularly Italia '90. I said to myself, "If I miss this, I'll never be able to go back to Brazil. That will be the end of me." But at the same time, I began to think about all those things I mentioned: my dreams, about how many people were rooting for me in Brazil and around the world, not to mention my relatives and friends. All these people believed in me and had great confidence in me, and now was the time for me to show I was worthy of that. I said to myself, "I've trained for this, and so I can do it. This just depends on me."
Having practiced a lot with Gilmar and Taffarel, when I generally tried to power it into the corners, they knew my preferred style. And so I began to change this during our practice sessions, also aware that, having played in Italy, the opposition would have studied my shooting style. In the Final, I thought it would be a good time to hit it differently, and I had the good fortune and ability to be able to score.

Taffarel said Marcio had not missed a single penalty kick in training. Were you concerned for any of your fellow teammates at that moment?
No. We were confident. We were aware of the responsibility each of us had assumed on behalf of our team and country. Mutual trust was one of the characteristics of our team, as we had such a strong bond. When Branco was feeling his way back from injury but still felt he could contain Holland's fastest player, we placed a lot of trust in him. When you place your trust in a teammate and he knows this, he grows in self-esteem, which helps him to perform well.

Were you surprised to see Baresi and Baggio miss their penalty kicks?
It was a surprise, given the quality and history of those players. However, the records also show that taking a penalty is not as simple as people like to think, with composure and physical condition all significant factors. In Brazil we always say that the penalty kick is so important that the president should take it. If you miss, you can tarnish your whole career in a split-second. When someone steps forward to take one, he's carrying that responsibility on his shoulders, and he knows if he misses, no one will ever forget. So, you can imagine the tension a player feels when he has to take a crucial penalty kick and the composure he must have at such a time.

What went through your mind when Baggio missed his kick?
The first thing was to celebrate, to hug my teammates. It's a joyous moment, and you don't know how to control yourself. Everything's very spontaneous and, even as it's happening, you cannot believe it. We only began to digest it after we saw the images on television. Then we realised that everything that had happened was true, not a dream. It was fantastic.

Can you describe the precise moment when you held the Trophy for the first time?
The most memorable moment, even for the Brazilian players, was climbing onto the podium to receive the Trophy. It's a feeling unlike any other. Something very interesting happened just after I received the World Cup. The photographers wanted me to pose with the Trophy, but I didn't want to do that and gave them an earful. They thought I was still angry with them because of their earlier criticism, but it wasn't like that. I just wasn't interested in posing. In fact, I wanted to celebrate the victory with my teammates and friends, not bother about photos. I believe things should be spontaneous and natural, like our team was. Nothing has to be thought out, and even my way of chiding the photographers was natural. I just wanted to happy and celebrate, like all Brazilians were doing at that moment.

You said that Carlos Alberto passed the Trophy on to Pele, and you were next in line. What did that mean to you?
It's a milestone in a player's career. Up till then, Brazil had only had three World Cup-winning captains. I was the fourth from 120-150 million people. I think that I have to thank God for having given me this opportunity. Maybe it's a little like the story of Cafu. You don't know why you were chosen to be in that exact position at that time, especially in Brazil, where there is this incomparable passion for the game.
People always ask me if that World Cup was more important than the one in 2002, and I always say no. Every Cup that Brazil have won is important. The only difference is that in 1994 Brazil hadn't won for 24 years. There's a pressure that comes with that, a feeling of an overdue debt. The country was going through a difficult period at that time, and our people needed something to boost their self-esteem so they could continue to work, remain competitive and better themselves.

You spoke about the Brazilian people. Can you describe their reaction when you arrived back there with the title?
It was something incredible, from Recife to Rio de Janeiro, two very hospitable cities. But the big surprise came in Brasilia, which is considered a political and somewhat reserved city. Yet when we got there, the city centre was packed, it looked like an anthill. There was only room for the fire truck and the Brazilian players. Everywhere else was just a sea of people with joy etched on their faces. Bringing some happiness to the Brazilian people was the best prize of all. Our people have suffered so much, yet they're hard working, dynamic and very competitive. Whenever something bad happens, the Brazilians are the first to help.
It was great to know that we could bring some happiness to a whole generation of people that had never seen Brazil crowned world champions. The whole world kept saying that Brazil played the best football, that they had the best players, the best coaches, yet still they couldn't win back the world title. In life, we're all born to win, but that all comes down to how much effort we put in, so we were teaching a nation how to win again. Talent is the important thing and can make the difference, but there is more to it than this. There is no magic "Brazilian formula"; there's only a competitive and professional approach, which is the way everything should be tackled. Of course you need talent, joy, determination and dreams, but without planning, organisation and work, it's very difficult to succeed. We have to provide the framework so that talent can flow naturally.

How did you feel when you won?
I felt proud to be Brazilian, especially as the people needed something to cheer about. At that moment, we could feel proud and say that Brazil had returned to the summit of world football. We were world champions, the best team on the planet, and that's a priceless feeling. The World Cup is such a huge competition that the whole world stops to watch. I'm not saying that other sports are less important, but success at a football World Cup has economic and cultural significance. The country becomes known around the world because of it. Other sports tend to speak only for themselves with their competitions, but football speaks for all sports that take place in that country. It can market your country, bring warring factions together and does not discriminate on the grounds of wealth. It can bring people together who only want to celebrate and have a good time.
Football and the World Cup are so important, and, for those of us who participated, there's nothing better. You become a household name across the world and, wherever you go, people recognize you because you played in and won a World Cup.

That Final against Italy was the culmination of all the team's efforts. Was that the best day of your career?
Without a doubt! Playing in a World Cup is a milestone in your career. Having the opportunity to compete in one, or better still win one, in front of the watching world would be the pinnacle of any footballer's career. So yes, it's a day we'll remember for the rest of our lives.
Time moves on and it's become part of history, but there couldn't be a greater treasure in our lives than this. The World Cup that Brazil won (in 1994) was testimony to the friendship of that group. This was a group of talented people who worked hard and competed with each other without sacrificing friendship, mutual respect, ethics, professionalism or transparency. That meant a great deal. Coach Parreira used a very interesting phrase to sum that up, describing it as "friends forever". That Cup symbolized this. It wasn't winning the World Cup that made us great friends, but rather the hard work and companionship that won us the title in the first place.

How does it feel to hold the Trophy again now?
I'm struck by how quickly the intervening years have gone by. The joy then was indescribable. Few people can win this Trophy. It doesn't belong to me or the other captains: it belongs to the people, and that's because it represents football.
When our coach Parreira said he wanted people to touch it, what he meant was none of it belongs to us - not the game, not the national team and not even the World Cup. It all belongs to the people, and that's the most important thing about football. We showed people that we were normal human beings just like them, and that our joy came from making others happy, entertaining them, seeing them go to the stadiums to celebrate, all in a peaceful way. Our happiness came from giving the people a World Cup triumph to celebrate themselves. That joy, that motivation and that feeling makes players redouble their efforts on the field to produce a beautiful spectacle.

What do you think of the cup aesthetically?
Aesthetically it shows a ball, which represents the planet, and the planet is intertwined with the football. In one lies the strength of the other, through the union of both elements. I believe that it represents all mankind uniting behind something physically small, in this case a ball, but which symbolises something so huge that it manages to bring people together, using a sphere.